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Friday, August 10, 2007
Do your homework
I've been noticing quite a few inquires on coffeegeek lately of ppl seeking "professional" advices on opening shops/roasting/professional equipments/etc. I found this both irritating and insulting at the same time.
First of all, coffeegeek is a "home" enthusiast site. Sure there are some pro's lurking around but main user base are made up of a really niche group of coffee drinkers. In fact, I am speculating that coffeegeek prob represent less than 5% of your actual customers. As such, the feedback you get back from the forum is very skewed toward this user base. Also, since most of the knowledge is focused on home users, the advices you got will most likely be not applicable in a business setting. Seeking advices regarding the coffee business on this site just showed how lack of knowledge you have. If you need help from coffeegeek, you really should not be in the business.
I also found this VERY insulting as a person who is somewhat connected to the biz. Pay your dues and do your own research. The answers are out there. Looking for a easy answer is just pure laziness. Please do not call yourself a coffee professional if you cannot even do this.
Oh btw, free advice is just that. Sometimes it takes a lot of time and money to educate yourself. That is just a fact of life. ¶ Ben Chen 9:16 AM
I've been noticing quite a few inquires on coffeegeek lately of ppl seeking "professional" advices on opening shops/roasting/professional equipments/etc. I found this both irritating and insulting at the same time.
First of all, coffeegeek is a "home" enthusiast site. Sure there are some pro's lurking around but main user base are made up of a really niche group of coffee drinkers. In fact, I am speculating that coffeegeek prob represent less than 5% of your actual customers. As such, the feedback you get back from the forum is very skewed toward this user base. Also, since most of the knowledge is focused on home users, the advices you got will most likely be not applicable in a business setting. Seeking advices regarding the coffee business on this site just showed how lack of knowledge you have. If you need help from coffeegeek, you really should not be in the business.
I also found this VERY insulting as a person who is somewhat connected to the biz. Pay your dues and do your own research. The answers are out there. Looking for a easy answer is just pure laziness. Please do not call yourself a coffee professional if you cannot even do this.
Oh btw, free advice is just that. Sometimes it takes a lot of time and money to educate yourself. That is just a fact of life. ¶ Ben Chen 9:16 AM
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There is good info that can be found on CG, but there is SO MUCH noise also. Part of that noise is what you mention about professional advice requests. Personally, when I see most of those posts, I think the poster is full of shit and has no real intention of opening a shop, or they are pursuing a coffee business for reasons other than a solid interest in coffee. And then the responses from other posters ... "professional advice" from people who have never worked an espresso bar before. To me it's just a bunch of nonsense, and I ignore it.
definitely a lot of noise. definitely not the best place to get pro advice.
yet:
a guy i know here in s.c. was gonna open a shop -- let's face it, many people do this with NO input or research -- and asked for tips on CG. he was met with ... indignance? outrage? insulted feelings? why, no. the geeks told him what they'd demand in a coffee shop.
through this, he hooked up with ccc, got his baristi trained and is now one of only two joints in this entire state where you'd be well-advised to buy a double.
why can't good pro coffee be an evolution? and why can't CG, with all its drawbacks, be a portal for this? why limit the avenues for the revolution?
if s.c.'s two shop-owners of esteem had tried to meet your standard -- spending heavily on r&d before opening -- this state wouldn't have a single shop worth your time.
yet:
a guy i know here in s.c. was gonna open a shop -- let's face it, many people do this with NO input or research -- and asked for tips on CG. he was met with ... indignance? outrage? insulted feelings? why, no. the geeks told him what they'd demand in a coffee shop.
through this, he hooked up with ccc, got his baristi trained and is now one of only two joints in this entire state where you'd be well-advised to buy a double.
why can't good pro coffee be an evolution? and why can't CG, with all its drawbacks, be a portal for this? why limit the avenues for the revolution?
if s.c.'s two shop-owners of esteem had tried to meet your standard -- spending heavily on r&d before opening -- this state wouldn't have a single shop worth your time.
'why can't good pro coffee be an evolution? and why can't CG, with all its drawbacks, be a portal for this? why limit the avenues for the revolution?'
Researching roasters to connect with and getting real life training is one thing. Asking how to pull shots, roast, or cafe design/location on a forum is another.
I think Ben is hinting at a larger feeling that too many people seek the easy way too often and miss out on so much of the very important details.
Researching roasters to connect with and getting real life training is one thing. Asking how to pull shots, roast, or cafe design/location on a forum is another.
I think Ben is hinting at a larger feeling that too many people seek the easy way too often and miss out on so much of the very important details.
Yes, it's about FINDING your way to the answers, and by this I don't mean excluding anyone's help. It's just that there is a huge difference between getting a set of successful parameters from someone, or discovering and UNDERSTANDING those parameters through discovery. That's where the payout is ... through effort and time.
advice, as with everything:
You get what you pay for.
I've opened cafes in the past, and each time they had built into their budget my salary - with that, they get tons of hours hands on, paperwork, ordering organized, product velocities/par levels and more.
I've also worked at the type of shop where the owner was oblivious. Guess which type sees more success?
You get what you pay for.
I've opened cafes in the past, and each time they had built into their budget my salary - with that, they get tons of hours hands on, paperwork, ordering organized, product velocities/par levels and more.
I've also worked at the type of shop where the owner was oblivious. Guess which type sees more success?
I totaly agree you need to stand behind the grinder and machine (eventually even the roaster) and teach yourself how to do it.
You may read and see and hear as much as you want ; the only way to become a great Barista is by doing it.
It teach my peope a lot up front, but the best training is in the field. Practice, practice, practice.
That's how i did it. Sometimes it takes longer and costs some money, but in the end it goes way deeper and, as Jaime said, you come across all the small details. It's in those small details you find the best Barista's.
Good luck,
Rob, Antwerp Barista.
You may read and see and hear as much as you want ; the only way to become a great Barista is by doing it.
It teach my peope a lot up front, but the best training is in the field. Practice, practice, practice.
That's how i did it. Sometimes it takes longer and costs some money, but in the end it goes way deeper and, as Jaime said, you come across all the small details. It's in those small details you find the best Barista's.
Good luck,
Rob, Antwerp Barista.
More like a grumpy old dude just need to let out some steams... though I do believe there are quite a few "silent" readers out there...
I might not be competent enough to post as the rest are . However, forums like Coffee Geek do have a role to play. Out of ten so called enthusiasts one might be the serious type. I have been a coffee enthusiast for the last six years. However, I could never get the insight into any of the processes, due to personal constraints, and non existence of coffee culture in India.
It has only been through the forums and informative blogs like yours that I have been able to muster up enough courage to get into the world of coffee(Sourcing,roasting and selling ).
As for the business and the related economics, they are different from the soul side of it, that is to dive deep into the ocean of coffee and its various facets. Therefore the ones who seek such advices and the ones who dish out advices might not serve the purpose.
I hope I do not offend with this stray comment.
Thanks,
Abhishek, India
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It has only been through the forums and informative blogs like yours that I have been able to muster up enough courage to get into the world of coffee(Sourcing,roasting and selling ).
As for the business and the related economics, they are different from the soul side of it, that is to dive deep into the ocean of coffee and its various facets. Therefore the ones who seek such advices and the ones who dish out advices might not serve the purpose.
I hope I do not offend with this stray comment.
Thanks,
Abhishek, India
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