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Wednesday, May 16, 2007
Hello, are you there quality?
From conversations on coffeed:
'I've been told that taste is the only morality. I've since disagreed. I love the taste of those cheap pecan spinwheels you can find nearly anywhere. The problem, is that the quality is extremely low. A whole lot of people love the taste of coffee and chocolate iced milkshakes. The problem, is that the quality just isn't there. A lot of people love dirty coffees. The problem, is that the highest possible quality just isn't there. Are we promoting "what you like", or are we promoting quality? If it's just about "what you like", then maybe Starbucks is onto something.' -Jason Haeger
A lot of times in coffee, I think people misunderstand our little site here at barismo. I remember Ben talking about how on one European forum a participant insisted our review of aeropress missed the 'obvious' fact that it was convenient and our preference for vac pot was like lugging around lab equipment. The truth is convenience is for someone else's site. We want the best of the best in terms of coffees and brew methods. Sure there's subjectivity in that but it also means we are willing to forgo convenience for a substantially better cup of brewed coffee.
I think that applies to all coffee because great coffee isn't easy or simple. I think the problem is that there are multitudes of people on forums and websites all professing that what they serve at home or in shop is the best of the best. Some may be right but a lot of others are simply getting the most out of what they have, not necessarily the best.
'Jason makes an important point. Most coffee drinkers in the world don't really understand coffee and have little to no experience with 'high quality'. They've never tasted it, don't know it's out there, and in most cases don't have any immediate access to it. One way to look at this whole issue is that it is our job as coffee professionals to take them by the hand and lead them to the well...(continued a must read!)' - Geoff Watts
The coffees that win awards and garner top honors for being the 'least coffee-like' are the coffees I find intriguing. Those are the coffees I want to promote and talk about. The processing requires skill and intensive labor to prepare an exceptional cup, something lesser coffees do not. That's why Sumatra and Harrars don't interest me.
Not to mis-inform people (particularly googlers!) by simply saying they suck, I truly just don't believe the quality is there. Maybe that means I will have a lot of headaches finding 'good' coffees but I'd rather not drink it unless it's going to be a great cup.
Same goes for tea in case you were wondering.
From conversations on coffeed:
'I've been told that taste is the only morality. I've since disagreed. I love the taste of those cheap pecan spinwheels you can find nearly anywhere. The problem, is that the quality is extremely low. A whole lot of people love the taste of coffee and chocolate iced milkshakes. The problem, is that the quality just isn't there. A lot of people love dirty coffees. The problem, is that the highest possible quality just isn't there. Are we promoting "what you like", or are we promoting quality? If it's just about "what you like", then maybe Starbucks is onto something.' -Jason Haeger
A lot of times in coffee, I think people misunderstand our little site here at barismo. I remember Ben talking about how on one European forum a participant insisted our review of aeropress missed the 'obvious' fact that it was convenient and our preference for vac pot was like lugging around lab equipment. The truth is convenience is for someone else's site. We want the best of the best in terms of coffees and brew methods. Sure there's subjectivity in that but it also means we are willing to forgo convenience for a substantially better cup of brewed coffee.
I think that applies to all coffee because great coffee isn't easy or simple. I think the problem is that there are multitudes of people on forums and websites all professing that what they serve at home or in shop is the best of the best. Some may be right but a lot of others are simply getting the most out of what they have, not necessarily the best.
'Jason makes an important point. Most coffee drinkers in the world don't really understand coffee and have little to no experience with 'high quality'. They've never tasted it, don't know it's out there, and in most cases don't have any immediate access to it. One way to look at this whole issue is that it is our job as coffee professionals to take them by the hand and lead them to the well...(continued a must read!)' - Geoff Watts
The coffees that win awards and garner top honors for being the 'least coffee-like' are the coffees I find intriguing. Those are the coffees I want to promote and talk about. The processing requires skill and intensive labor to prepare an exceptional cup, something lesser coffees do not. That's why Sumatra and Harrars don't interest me.
Not to mis-inform people (particularly googlers!) by simply saying they suck, I truly just don't believe the quality is there. Maybe that means I will have a lot of headaches finding 'good' coffees but I'd rather not drink it unless it's going to be a great cup.
Same goes for tea in case you were wondering.
Labels: green quality, musings
¶ Jaime van Schyndel 12:59 PM
Comments:
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I love good coffee, but I am not a coffee lover. I rather not drink anything if the cup is just not that good. I don't need coffee like many out there...
Are you saying that there are no Sumatra's and Harrar's that are exceptional because they're all processed poorly? La Minita processes a sun-dried Sumatran that has a great syrupy body and a distinct butterscotch flavor. The labor involved in the processing of this coffee is so intense and meticulous that they only ship 1000 bags a year. What you have is a triple picked coffee with defects eliminated that characterize the Sumatra's with a dirty, earthy flavor. This is just one example.
Quality starts with the grower and ends with the guy brewing. If any of the pieces in between falter, quality suffers. Every origin has farmers going above and beyond to produce excellent coffees. They may not taste like a Yirgacheffe or a Kenyan but trust me there are some beauties out there.
Quality starts with the grower and ends with the guy brewing. If any of the pieces in between falter, quality suffers. Every origin has farmers going above and beyond to produce excellent coffees. They may not taste like a Yirgacheffe or a Kenyan but trust me there are some beauties out there.
Bob - I am slightly confused:
Are you talking a different La Minita to the Costa Rican "Uber Farm", cos otherwise I am a little lost on them processing a coffee from a different part of the world?
Are you talking a different La Minita to the Costa Rican "Uber Farm", cos otherwise I am a little lost on them processing a coffee from a different part of the world?
I believe Bob is talking about the Iskandar TP Mandheling. In fact, I've bought and sorted the Iskandar TP for almost 5 yrs. In the early yrs it had been so nice that the rejection rate of it was merely 10~15% in my standard. But in recent 2 yrs, the quality has dropped to a rejection rate of 45%. I don't understand why this could happen on a pricey La Minita brand coffee, but it happened and upset me. If you say La Minita is the name for "Quality," I don't agree that completely, for these recent 2 yrs experiences with their beans.
Simon Hsieh
Simon Hsieh
Simon, I was only illustrating an example of a Sumatran coffee that had been carefully processed. "Quality" is always in the cup and not in a producers name. It's a shame that the coffee has slipped however, I still find the quality high.
Re Sumatra... I just don't know if there is enough potential in the coffee and it's growing environment to make a big enough difference to justify big money even if sparkling clean sorting methods were applied.
Bob,
I agree with the "quality is in the cup thing." But you should try the "cup quality without the moldy greens and beans with black holes in both ends." You will find out more. The carefully prepared Sumatras are good, but still not good enough when you see what odds also become the components of your cup...I feel horrible.
I agree with the "quality is in the cup thing." But you should try the "cup quality without the moldy greens and beans with black holes in both ends." You will find out more. The carefully prepared Sumatras are good, but still not good enough when you see what odds also become the components of your cup...I feel horrible.
we have at Caffènation permenantly an unwashed Mokka Harrar longberry on the (mazzer mini) grinder. Both first hand amateurs as professionals adore the taste on espresso or lungo. Even more, last weekend we had dozens of coffee professionals from all over the world at our bar and the Harrar was generaly most appreciated, above our House blend and a superb Australian Skyburry.
i see the Harrar almost as a prime example of a natural bean, which is shown in the many defects, this year's harvest even more than before.
i see the Harrar almost as a prime example of a natural bean, which is shown in the many defects, this year's harvest even more than before.
DP Mochas usually have few moldy greens inside compared to Sumatras and most Centrals. I say this because I sort every coffee from elsewhere of the world. But naturals somehow would suffer from instability from cup to cup unless it's a Gr.1 and sorted to 100% defect-free like what I did for my Idido Misty Valley DP two months ago. I agree that sometimes some Harrar lots may have extraordinary cup quality, and for DP mocha lovers it is so exciting when getting "the" lot. Obviously that Harrar Roberto got has more defects than before but how about the moldy greens rate? I'm only horrified by such thing. Health issue actually.
Health issue, Simon? Can you please elaborate?
And Jaime, a hypothetical. If a particular coffee--in this case a Sumatra or Moka or Harrar--happens to be processed cleanly can you really say you simply don't like it because of "its growing environment?" I think you will have to elaborate more on that because I seem to recall having the discussion in Guatemala where we discussed buyers like some Japanese who buy (and ostensibly love) coffees simply because they are very clean, in effect allowing the tail to wag the dog, if you will. If I remember my facts correctly you were in general agreement with that philosophy.
If then, the clean cup "tastes" better than the defected one in any showdown simply by virtue of its processing how can you say a particular region doesn't have the terroir, assuming meticulous processing throughout?
Or is that what you're saying?
And Jaime, a hypothetical. If a particular coffee--in this case a Sumatra or Moka or Harrar--happens to be processed cleanly can you really say you simply don't like it because of "its growing environment?" I think you will have to elaborate more on that because I seem to recall having the discussion in Guatemala where we discussed buyers like some Japanese who buy (and ostensibly love) coffees simply because they are very clean, in effect allowing the tail to wag the dog, if you will. If I remember my facts correctly you were in general agreement with that philosophy.
If then, the clean cup "tastes" better than the defected one in any showdown simply by virtue of its processing how can you say a particular region doesn't have the terroir, assuming meticulous processing throughout?
Or is that what you're saying?
blanco,
You might want to know what my "health issue" means by checking one of my posts regarding the moldy greens:
http://4-arts-coffee.blogspot.com/2007/05/enjoy-this-jamaican-blue-mtn-no1.html#links
I can't let everyone believe that moldy greens really affect cup quality because not everyone can tell this due to the lack of comparison and contrast opportunities. But I can be sure that moldy greens can result in certain toxin which is harmful to our health. Same issue on all other bean products if you would like to search related info on the net.
You might want to know what my "health issue" means by checking one of my posts regarding the moldy greens:
http://4-arts-coffee.blogspot.com/2007/05/enjoy-this-jamaican-blue-mtn-no1.html#links
I can't let everyone believe that moldy greens really affect cup quality because not everyone can tell this due to the lack of comparison and contrast opportunities. But I can be sure that moldy greens can result in certain toxin which is harmful to our health. Same issue on all other bean products if you would like to search related info on the net.
Terroir relates to elevation and climate so there are definately some coffees that even with good processing would be boring or in the very least never demand high cup prices.
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